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Post by jeff on Jul 27, 2016 20:38:41 GMT
To put a little perspective on building, I ran the following exercise: For yachts, materials cost ranges from ~$5,600 to as high as ~$9,000 per ton of displacement, for DIY. Prices are easily doubled, for commercially built vessels. From: www.benford.us/lists.htmlDISPLACEMENT & CONSTRUCTION COSTS Costs for boatbuilding these days are fairly directly tied to the volume or displacement (weight) of the vessel involved. The feedback we've been receiving from our various builders indicates to us that costs are running from about $2.50/pound for the very heavy displacement types to over $4/pound for the lighter displacement boats. For an example, look at the range of displacements for our 50' designs - they range from 32,750 to 110,000 pounds. Using the lower $2.50 price times 110,000 gives $275,000 and the higher $4 times 32,750 gives $131,000. These prices are for materials only, exclusive of any hired labor, tools, building site, building shed, insurance, launching, and inflation over the time during which the vessel is built. A professionally built boat is running from a low of around $5/pound for the very heavy ones to well beyond $20 for the lighter ones. This would include the materials above plus the labor to transform them into a boat, but with no allowance for inflation. This figure can readily be run up, depending on the level of finish and detail, plus the costs for electronics and other extras that may be added as the boat is being built. Of course, the costs in a boat can be unlimited, as we all tend to add "just one more" item to them in an ongoing fashion, but these figures generally include all the basics such as engines, sails, berths, head and galley. ********************************************************************** By way of comparison, my current concept for a Ramform vessel, scaled back from the Ramform Sterling... "Sterling" Deadweight: 4525 mt Length Overall x Breadth Extreme x Draft: 102.2m × 40m x 7.3m (335.3ft x 131.23ft x 23.95ft) "Our Shangri La" Deadweight: 22.6mt/49824.47lbs LOA x Beam: 62ft x 32ft x 2.67ft(32in est) Reduction factor: (62\335.3) x (32/131.23) x (2.67/23.95) ~ 0.005 used to estimate weight "Our Shangri La" is planned for the approximate size-range, where ferrocement can be lighter than all-steel construction, however, I am sticking to the straight conversion, for the sake of simplicity, and to cover the plan to over-build, for a more storm-resistant structure. Using the figures above, at 22.6mt x $5,600 ~ $126,560 ...just for materials... Easily double, or more, if professionally built, and does not include the cost of the design and engineering of the plans... To quote the documentation... "These prices are for materials only, exclusive of any hired labor, tools, building site, building shed, insurance, launching, and inflation over the time during which the vessel is built."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2016 3:42:11 GMT
My lil mind boggles at the thought of $125,000 for a boat, when i am dealing with $75 for a sheet of steel.
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Post by jeff on Oct 5, 2016 18:39:47 GMT
Since the goal is to keep within the cost of building a house, all DIY, how much in materials have you spent on your house, and estimate how much more, before it would be finished...? What if you started new, today?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 19:34:30 GMT
I figure i spent $24k on cement, maybe that on lumber, about half that on roofing. So maybe $60k total, spread out over 10 or more years, for 3000 sq ft of floor space. However, i also paid no rent while building, i own the land. Part of that time, i also paid nearly no electricity, or water. If i were to buy a bouncy swaying conventional dock queen of a boat, that $60k would be eaten up in dock fees in 10 years time. And i'd be miserable living in what's essentially a floating camper that's always moving in the water, in a marine campground.
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Post by jeff on Oct 7, 2016 1:35:34 GMT
This is why TSI only plays a Rich-mans' game, and why I'm for DIY and the common people that want to make a difference in their own and their childrens' lives... discuss.seasteading.org/t/30-million-project-announced-sti-blue21-french-polynesia/1949?u=jl_frushaThe new city could consist of two or three platforms that each cover half a football field and house 30 people. (Half a football field describes DeltSync's platform size of 50m square). The starting cost of construction will be about $30 million [...]Each additional platform is $15 million. (for 30 people so $500k per person, $6000 per square meter, or $660 per square foot.) The institute hopes to raise money from a handful of investors (whom Hencken declined to name), future residents, and interested parties in the maritime industry. ---------------------------------------------VS----------------------------- Our Shangri La" Deadweight: 22.6mt/49824.47lbs LOA x Beam: 62ft x 32ft x 2.67ft(32in est) Reduction factor: (62\335.3) x (32/131.23) x (2.67/23.95) ~ 0.005 used to estimate weight "Our Shangri La" is planned for the approximate size-range, where ferrocement can be lighter than all-steel construction, however, I am sticking to the straight conversion, for the sake of simplicity, and to cover the plan to over-build, for a more storm-resistant structure. Using the figures above, at 22.6mt x $5,600 ~ $126,560 ...just for materials... Easily double, or more, if professionally built, and does not include the cost of the design and engineering of the plans... Approximately 1300 sq ft (1/2 internal, 1/2 upper deck) Less than $100 per square ft., as a DIY project...
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Post by thebastidge on Oct 7, 2016 18:39:51 GMT
It won't happen. If rich people want to live in FP, they will buy cottages on islands for that kind of price. There are any number of properties for sale there for half a mil or less. TSI is talking about a million dollars per head- not per household. You can buy an entire island for far less than that. You can certainly buy a house in Tahiti for less.
They are still fooling themselves, biased by the area they live in, the billionaire philanthropists that kick-started them, and let's face it- the criticism of starry-eyed objectivist libertarian propaganda fits in this case.
There's literally no reason any of this should cost that much, nor will it happen if they can't get the price down to what middle-class families typically spend on housing. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I wouldn't buy a spot on their platform.
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Post by thebastidge on Oct 7, 2016 19:14:18 GMT
Re-reading about Thor Heyerdahl's Kon Tiki experiment, the lack of roll inherent to a raft-like structure has a lot of mitigation to its credit. Sailing vessels tend to make people seaick because of the acceleration being exacerbated by pitch and roll, not just up and down from wave swell.
I really think the barge/platform concept has a lot of advantages in any kind of environment that avoids extremes of open ocean waves. The Cay Sal idea, where the water depth varies from 20-30 feet, and most of the waves are less than ten ft even in pretty severe gale conditions... that has potential for long term living with any kind of moderately effective breakwater. Or any protected bay. The concrete docks I posted a little while back made it through hurricanes pretty effectively.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 4:08:52 GMT
This question is for servicing boats no bigger than 20ft beam and 40ft loa.
How do the business operation costs for a roaming floating drydock in sheltered water compare to the operating costs of a fixed boat lift on land?
I am going to assume the cost of a phone, and small signage on land (and on the shareholder's personal boats) is the same.
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Post by thebastidge on Oct 18, 2016 15:26:42 GMT
Well, separating capital costs and operating costs...
You need moorage, which will presumably vary in cost from place to place, with sometimes "free" being the answer in places where there is no anchoring limit You need fuel for getting under way, whether towed, or self propelled
You need fuel for generator, and electricity will be a higher unit cost because it's generator or PV solar driven, rather than grid-tied.
Maintenance on the dry dock would presumably be higher cost than the boat lift, more complexity of mechanism and it's less convenient to get to, tear down, service, etc.
Not sure what licensing is require to operate a boat lift. Probably none (it's not an elevator, which is highly regulated). For a dry dock, you probably need a Captain's license. You also have annual boat license/registration, in addition to a general business license which would be required on land.
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Post by thebastidge on Oct 18, 2016 22:24:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 5:01:42 GMT
I was thinking land rental would more than offset the fuel costs for electricity on a floating drydock on free anchorage. I don't see much moving about being required. Would a captain be required if the drydock is at anchor?
EDIT: The pdf is a great find, but it pertains to the 200ft long (or longer) traditional floating drydock with very tall side walls, with people aboard as the drydock is submerged, and the hull being a one-piece affair.
I am thinking a 3-piece hull, 4ft tall hinged skinny side walls, outboard pontoons, and keel/hull blocks that can be moved remotely. This would be a do-it-myself project, which i could rent out, or allow a work crew to co-own.
This would be for work on the average outboard boat, and small inboards. The size i mentioned would cover the smaller 39ft catamaran, or a small tri, a cabin cruiser fishing boat, the family pontoon boat, or a family of pwc.
If not in use for boat servicing, i could set up a campfire and play loud music.
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Post by thebastidge on Oct 20, 2016 19:03:28 GMT
I was thinking land rental would more than offset the fuel costs for electricity on a floating drydock on free anchorage. I don't see much moving about being required. Would a captain be required if the drydock is at anchor? EDIT: The pdf is a great find, but it pertains to the 200ft long (or longer) traditional floating drydock with very tall side walls, with people aboard as the drydock is submerged, and the hull being a one-piece affair. I am thinking a 3-piece hull, 4ft tall hinged skinny side walls, outboard pontoons, and keel/hull blocks that can be moved remotely. This would be a do-it-myself project, which i could rent out, or allow a work crew to co-own. This would be for work on the average outboard boat, and small inboards. The size i mentioned would cover the smaller 39ft catamaran, or a small tri, a cabin cruiser fishing boat, the family pontoon boat, or a family of pwc. If not in use for boat servicing, i could set up a campfire and play loud music. Yep, just looking for standards-based things that would give comparisons. You and Jeff both have a habit of bringing measurements and solid arguments, unlike many hand-wavers over at TSI. It's still marginally worthwhile to me to post there, but bringing soe regulatory and engineering standards to the conversation is where my head is at, not pretty pictures of things that will never be or that aren't actually floating cities they are claimed to be.
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Post by jeff on Oct 21, 2016 2:21:30 GMT
"You and Jeff both have a habit of bringing measurements and solid arguments, unlike many hand-wavers over at TSI. It's still marginally worthwhile to me to post there, but bringing soe regulatory and engineering standards to the conversation is where my head is at..."
Which, despite all of the varitions I've come up with, over there, all of mine are based with solid DIY potential, even the larger versions, which would take a group effort to build and more than just a couple to operate. All of my concepts are based on real-world, proven designs. I don't take credit for anything other than the way I decided yhe pieces should go together.
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