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Post by johngalt on May 11, 2016 18:04:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 18:29:46 GMT
Every company that put those types of vertical pumps at sea has gone bust. The most recent (a couple of years ago) was offshore Washington, usa. They went bust trying to fix version one, before version two was finished. Company was sold, and what's left is totally out of all ocean technologies now.
But, wait!, you want to run a hose to shore, up a mountain, make a SALT WATER LAKE, and install a new hydropower facility there! Where? Did you do any environment studies to show the salt water lake is acceptable? That the outflow from the new hydropower plant is acceptable? That the flex hoses are sustainable? That you can get enough pumps floating to lift enough water high enough? That no boating activities will be impacted? Do you have a reason for a "Hose Raising Buoy", as pictured?
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Post by johngalt on May 11, 2016 19:02:31 GMT
I just want to run it into a tank and gravity feed a generator. In other words, use water for energy storage. Starts in the ocean and ends in the ocean.
Did I do something to upset you? You seem to be getting riled about anything that I say.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2016 20:31:12 GMT
I just want to run it into a tank and gravity feed a generator. In other words, use water for energy storage. Starts in the ocean and ends in the ocean. Did I do something to upset you? You seem to be getting riled about anything that I say. A tank? Not a lake up a hill on land as the original post said? Did you do the math? How much water will you need to put how high up on the seastead to make how much electricity? And how far down will that water push the seastead (because all that water up there in the tank has weight). Lets say you are going to put a tank 20x20 feet, and keep 10ft of water in it, so you can use it as a swimming pool too. That's 4,000 cubic feet of water, weighing 130 tons. How much will the tank weigh to support 130 tons of water? And how high up in the air will it be? 100 feet? 200 feet? How will you keep it from tipping over? How much electricity do you need from it, for how long? Will it deliver?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 1:22:48 GMT
A tank? Not a lake up a hill on land as the original post said? Did you do the math? How much water will you need to put how high up on the seastead to make how much electricity? And how far down will that water push the seastead (because all that water up there in the tank has weight). Lets say you are going to put a tank 20x20 feet, and keep 10ft of water in it, so you can use it as a swimming pool too. That's 4,000 cubic feet of water, weighing 130 tons. How much will the tank weigh to support 130 tons of water? And how high up in the air will it be? 100 feet? 200 feet? How will you keep it from tipping over? How much electricity do you need from it, for how long? Will it deliver? No lets say I put a 500 gallon tank on it and connect a small micro hydro generator that adds a little bit of power to my batteries while I spray off some tools. If I really need the power I can dump the entire tank and let it fill up over time again. I could probably get about 8 hours of generator time flowing on a 1/2 inch line. I wish you'd do the math before you make the suggestions. I really hope you put as much effort in your seastead as you do attempting to trash me. There's a number of formulas online, (like Wikipedia), so i figure the non-lazy person would run the numbers on the proposal to put a body of water up into the air to turn a hydropower generator on a seastead. I choose the simple formula P=9.8*Q*h*E, where P = kw, Q = cubic meters per second, h = height in meters, and E = efficency (typically 80%). Since you were rather sparse on numbers, i figured using 6 meters (approx 20ft) height, and 500gallons is a 4x4x4 cube, lets call that 2 cubic meters just to make the math easy, and lets dump all the water in one second. Plugging in the numbers, we get 94kw for one second. That's silly just because the huge turbine and generator won't come up to rpm in one second, due to their inertia, that's some serious heavy hardware, i have some of it. Lets stretch the water flow out to 3600 seconds, or one hour, that gives us 26 watts for the duration of the hour. That's a lot less of a generator, for sure! You mentioned charging batteries with it, lets calculate that using "rules of thumb". We have 26 watts total at best case, losing 20% of it in the charger itself, gives us 20 watts, and losing 20% in the battery (because it's new, you lose way more as the battery ages), gives us 17 watts back out of the battery (the same day, batteries run down over time, you may never get the power back!). But back to the 26 watts calculated from the hydropower generator, that's for an hour, then you are out of water. What if we decide to run lites thru 10 hours of nighttime with it? That's 26/10 , or 2.6 watts for the lights for the night. They better be LEDs. I'll let you figure out how many AAA cells you have replaced by building a 20ft tower with 500 gallons of corrosive salt water up on it. So you see, i don't need to trash you, i only do the math.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 2:07:28 GMT
Yeah the math led you to invent a lake and hydro electric plant and not your charming personality. Go fuck yourself. I'm done with this board. Jeff delete my account. YOU started this thread about pumped water storage up a hill, and YOU said it would be easy to do and useful to seasteaders. Only after i asked about it, you said a smaller amount up water up a pole on a boat. It's still impractical, but you are so high and mighty above doing the math, so i did it for you. I didn't even calculate the effects of the water up there would have on the boat stability. I never claimed to have a charming personality. In fact, the more i must deal with humans like you, the worse my opinion is of you. It galls me that you want to cram an amphibious trike down my throat, but you cannot do or accept the math of your own hydropower station. I am glad to see you go.
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Post by jeff on May 13, 2016 2:09:55 GMT
johngaltYou can delete it yourself, look at the 'shout box'. However, instead of fighting, think about it. Do you really want to store 500 gallons, just to turn a small generator and not have it last very long, or just have the electricity? That's more than my Subaru Forester weighs, and we've already been haggling over a roro for it, that might double as a trailer, behind my RV... Why not simply store the electricity and not move water around, or needing to support it with extra buoyancy and structure? There are plenty of ways to store energy, w/o storing the mass of water to run a generator. Suppose your pump is 65% efficient and the generator is 80% efficient. Now you have 52% of the energy back, and most batteries top-out around 85% efficiency, leaving 44% for the night. I'd rather generate electricity and store that, and cut some of the losses. Direct generation might be worth 85% of the energy put in, and storage at 85% drops it to 72%, nearly double what the other one can put back out of the battery... and there are still energy losses, such as device efficiencies, to account for. Beside that, there's also the changing Center of Gravity and waterline, from shifting water up and down, changing the way your vessel behaves in the water. There are as many ways to do a thing, as there are people to do it. Not all are as practical, for everyone else, but that's not saying it won't work. Sure, it works, but, is it going to work for what you want, long-term, or are you going to be looking for another way to do it, by the time the pump needs repairs?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 2:14:50 GMT
My post said none of that. Uphill means above where it is now. In your struggle to come up with something to complain about you invented a salt water lake, a hydro-electric plant that was an impact on the boating community and I am quite surprised you didn't get me involved in a military invasion of a small country. The link you gave describes using wave powered pumps, anchored in active water, to refill pumped storage hydroelectricity, which is literally up hills, or up mountains. I didn't invent anything. Did you read the article you posted the link to? Did you think the lake was fresh water, magically, having been pumped out of the ocean we seasteaders would be in?
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Post by johngalt on May 13, 2016 15:38:15 GMT
My post said none of that. Uphill means above where it is now. In your struggle to come up with something to complain about you invented a salt water lake, a hydro-electric plant that was an impact on the boating community and I am quite surprised you didn't get me involved in a military invasion of a small country. The link you gave describes using wave powered pumps, anchored in active water, to refill pumped storage hydroelectricity, which is literally up hills, or up mountains. I didn't invent anything. Did you read the article you posted the link to? Did you think the lake was fresh water, magically, having been pumped out of the ocean we seasteaders would be in? You posted this link, so you must be moving to Florida. That would make it hard to maintain your data center in the Pacific Ocean.
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Post by jeff on May 13, 2016 16:33:10 GMT
The data center is a potential way for the gulfstead to earn an income, keeping and maintaining them.
Stilthouses article is in line with the concept of owning the seabed and water above it, for something equivalent to buying and owning land, so you can put what you want w/o harassment from Navies, Coast Guard, etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 19:18:44 GMT
I didn't say either news/reference item was easy, or good for seasteading. You advocated pumped storage hydropower. Lifting things up so you can make electricity from them when they fall back down in a controlled fashion makes sense, but there's smaller packages of heavier stuff, that's easier to control and contain, than salt water. And there's limits to how high you can lift anything on a boat. While you are flailing around wildly, trying to hit me, please remember i pointed out your "500 gallon water on a tower on a seastead" would power some LEDs all night long. I did the math for you. For that you accused me of mental defect. I would rather write some code to hide all your posts from now on, than to read anything else you write.
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